Patties

[cam bishop]

Thanks for the ideas on feeding patties. Are you also feeding sugar now?

[Allen Dick]

I opened a drum of thick syrup the other day and placed grass on top. The bees have taken it down a bit. It is amazing how they fly even in cool weather, but we have not had a really warm day yet.

I also placed frame feeders in several hives and fed them. Those hives have almost emptied the gallon of syrup.

[Buffalo Bee Farm]

Feeding patties is something i do routinly, altough i must say i in the past only used 1 patty per week of Bee Pro (free shipping).

However, in 6-7 days a healthy hive can consume and remove all paper of a 1lb patty. so i know 2 lbs at a time is really needed atleast.

I dont see alot of early spring consumption in my area as the maples start blooming good in mid Feb and the bees typically dont break cluster enough and raise a ton of brood until then.. but maybe i am wrong...

My question related to fall feeding where i spend most my money. I know my season is different, but how many brood cycles prior to winter do you start feeding patties and how much.

I only plan to winter 60 full size hives but if i feed 2 lbs a week for 3 months thats about $2,000 USA dollars in patties alone. being a hobbist this is no light chunk...

I just wonder if there is an optimal cycle of brood that needs feeding vs rearing a ton of bees in the late summer just to have them consumer the honey that is stored and then die before helping the hive overwinter... (this thinkning began when i heard someone mention, maybe you, about relocating hives in the late summer during the day to de-populate them of the foragers to reduce feed consumption). been on my mind ever since...

Any thoughts?

Thanks, Doug Ladd
Buckingham VA USA

[Allen Dick]

To me, the only feeding that makes sense is spring and early-summer feeding. The benefits carry on through the subsequent winter in the form of healthier bees. Fall feeding may cause the bees to be late in receiving the signal to start making winter bees and also provide an extra brood cycle which does nothing but consume feed and raise more varroa. It is -- IMO -- money wasted in regions with a winter season and no need to maintain huge populations over winter.

Much of California is different, since they want to have their bees peaking in February for almonds and they don't have anything we would call winter. I don't know if you have ever looked into California hives in winter, but by our northern standards, they are pathetically small and light. That is why they feed all fall.

BTW, if my calculations from what you wrote are right, it sounds like your patties after "free shipping" are costing you $2.70 a pound. That seems awfully high and you should be able to get better patties cheaper, especially if you feed what I think you should and talk a few friends into splitting a pallet-load.

For example, Global's basic patty is only $1.05/lb, and their best one is only $1.49. I forget how many are on a pallet (around 1200 lb?), but a pallet should be able to go anywhere in the US for around $500. Maybe I'm wrong?

See http://globalpatties.com/orders/order_us.htm

As for moving to lose foragers, I wouldn't do that and don't see the point. The bees reduce populations naturally in accordance with what is available in the field, and I am sure it is much less stressful.

[Vance G]

Mr Dick are you associated with the global patty people? The place in Butte Mt that you recommended to me just took really good care of a friend of mine. They were hard up against it filing orders and he talked them into doing an overnight FedEx shipment and he had them the next day. He is relatively close though. Sounds like good people.

[dtompsett]

I recently had Global Patties in Canada ship a partial skid... 320lbs... I arranged my own truck pickup (Global's quoted price was fairly high compared to the price I got from a national shipping company)...

$140 to ship 3040km's (1900 miles). Pretty darn good if you ask me. Picked up on a Monday afternoon, and they were delivered to my office on Friday afternoon.

[Allen Dick]

> Mr Dick are you associated with the global patty people?

Yes indeed! My relationship with the Darazs is chronicled in my diary, starting when we first met. They had a few hives or wanted to get some and came out to visit and I guess I showed them the pollen patties we were making.

At the time, Meijers and I, after tiring of using our own staff to make patties and had hired a Hutterite colony to make our patties. It had seemed a good idea at the time, and the patties did get made, but, we were finding that supplying and supervising the project and quality control was keeping us busy. I guess I complained to the Darazs during the visit and they suggested they were interested.

At the time, Darazs were already in the food business, making and selling donair meat, so they knew all about mixing, measuring, portions, etc., so they did very good work on the patties, to the price we specified, and without supervision.

We were delighted and started telling other beekeepers. Soon, they were very busy and building specialized machines. I helped any way I could and lent them machinery and technical advice. I have a background in advertising and promotion and web design, so I helped with that, too.

Our relationship continues to present and I continue to be available to them to for technical issues, advertising, etc. and they are close family friends.

I have been involved in inspiring at least three of the current popular patty products on the market. In each other case, the people got greedy and wanted to make big bucks off the beekeepers. Global was different and their goal is to serve the beekeeper and make an honest living in the process.

Moreover, I have never heard them say a bad word about their competition, and have seen them assist competitors as well.

They are top-notch in my estimation. Not only that, but they have a good product and at the lowest price. They are careful with money, both their own and the customers', and take pride in giving the best value for money.

[Allen Dick]

> I recently had Global Patties in Canada ship a partial skid... 320lbs... I arranged my own truck pickup (Global's quoted price was fairly high compared to the price I got from a national shipping company)...

Yes, I've wondered about how you made out. Having arranged a lot of shipping, including forklifts and trailers clear across the continent and shipping supplies up from California, I got pretty good at finding the deals. Often speaking to different people in the same office would get drastically different prices.

Being the receiving party (the person who pays) and not the party sending, collect, (the person who just loads the product onto a truck) will make a difference, since they know the buyer is going to be more price-sensitive.

I had an annual negotiated price of $300 to ship a 40,000 pound semi-trailer load of honey from Swalwell to Edmonton, 160 miles, any time I had one to go. I sent a number of loads each season and every time, they billed me $575. Each time, I wrote a check for $300 with the invoice number on it and sent it in. Each time, I never heard about the "balance".

Trucking is a tough game and they know who they can con, and do. The shipper can try hard to get you a good rate, but oftentimes you can beat iit by 50% if you have the time.

These days, there are websites where you can list loads with weights and to and from addresses and get quotes from various truckers.

This is an interesting topic, and any ideas that you folks may have I'll pass on the Mike. I know that their products are the best value, but paying shipping puts off lots of people. That's why they will pay more for an inferior product just to avoid that charge.

I know I seldom buy things online because I hate the shipping charges and, being in the country, I hate having things come by UPS, even though I specify to NEVER ship UPS. UPS typically delivers my package somewhere 15 miles away and calls me to drive over to get it. I tell them they they are paid to deliver it to the address on the package, not some place I never go, and then I have to wait a day or two more. Grrr.

When we sold honey be mail order, we always included shipping, then gave discounts to boot. People loved it. We used the Post Office exclusively.

[dtompsett]

The funny thing about my experience... I had been purchasing from the Ontario distributor the past two years. This season, not only did they raise their prices (I found the 2011 price list to prove it), they effectively refused to sell me any product because they "might" need it for themselves.

My price including shipping came out to less than purchasing from the "local" (700km away) distributor... without factoring in their shipping charges!

My only complaint... I couldn't get more local beekeepers interested in purchasing patties.

[Buffalo Bee Farm]

i am one of those folks who have been turned off by high shipping cost. I did try to email Global the other day and their email was kicked back… anyway I would like to see what the true shipping would cost for about 1,000 lbs. I have routinely bought from Mann Lake their Bee Pro patties. I have good success with them and the “free” shipping cant be beat. One thing however, IF I lived near a Mann Lake location the prices would be cheaper, so technically I am paying shipping… but I am receiving 500 plus lbs via fedex on Tuesday from mann lake of equipment and the price was less than if I drove to a dadant or brushy mt location…

One thing I have been thinking about after your comment above, is that here in my area we get a dearth between mid june and the end of august. Then we get a natural pollen flow of golden rods etc. on dry years hives can weaken greatly and fail to build up in the fall if not fed. So if I feed during this time only (I have been feeding through the fall flow into November), I can keep the colonies strong and then allow them to dwindle and produce winter bees according to their natural instincts and not push them heavy with feeding pollen sub.

This should allow a proper sized healthy brood nest without over populating and throwing their winter bee production off…

Did that make any sense?

[Allen Dick]

> I did try to email Global the other day and their email was kicked back…

I'd be very interested to see the returned email if you still have a copy. I manage their email server and if mail is being returned, I would like to find out why. Email me if you would, please.

> anyway I would like to see what the true shipping would cost for about 1,000 lbs.

That is a moving target since, with trucking there is no fixed price. If a trucker has a lot of business,or the shipment is 'rush', the price will be double their 'normal'. If the trucker has space on a load that has already been mostly paid at a high rate by someone and is leaving partly empty, the price could be half the 'normal'. If you have a compact load, like patties, don't pay by weight if you can help it. Most loads are lighter than the allowable max and something like a pallet of patties does not take much space.

(It also comes down to how much the truckers can con you into paying, and they are very good at reading the situation. It is a game -- a blood sport, actually).

I'm sure Mann Lake has someone working on shipping full-time and discount contracts with Fed-ex. It has to be someone sharp who likes to bargain and is not a job most people enjoy since you have to call at least three and preferably five companies virtually every time you ship, except on contract and on contract, you have to make sure no bill is paid until the billing is verified by the in-house expert. Truckers love to send out bills with "mistakes". Mike is a nice guy and not one to press for an advantage. He is also very busy at patty-making time. They are not over-staffed, and that is why their prices are so much better than the competition. You need to arrange your own shipping to get the best price on shipping.

The old-fashioned way of getting cheap trucking was to find a back-haul, a trucker running home empty, by posting at the local truck stop bulletin board. Of course, it has to be worth the truckers's while to make the extra stops and any miles off his route, so a small package won't attract much interest, but a pallet and a few hundred dollars gets interest.

There are online sites where shippers or receivers can post loads and request bids. They were just getting going when I stopped doing a lot of shipping, so I can't say much about them except I noticed last time I looked that they have been consolidating and some have disappeared.

> I have routinely bought from Mann Lake their Bee Pro patties. I have good success with them

> FWIW, Global also makes patties for some customers with BeePro, but most prefer the yeast-soy products. I think Medhat did a comparison, too. Can't recall. BeePro has varied over time and whatever it is this year, it may be different next year, so it is hard to judge.

> and the “free” shipping cant be beat.

That is true in terms of simplifying the decision, especially if the customer is not very price-sensitive, but often the total price is higher than paying product plus shipping. It also conceals the true price of the product and makes it look more valuable.

> One thing however, If I lived near a Mann Lake location the prices would be cheaper, so technically I am paying shipping… but I am receiving 500 plus lbs via fedex on Tuesday from mann lake of equipment and the price was less than if I drove to a dadant or brushy mt location…

Yeah. Mike has talked to these outlets, but they all want to make a large markup. That means the product has to be cheaper or the product is overpriced for what it is. Global finally gave up on BetteBee as a distributor. That gouged (IMO) the beekeeper so much that their volume was so low that they were selling leftovers the next year and that is against Globals goals.

> One thing I have been thinking about after your comment above, is that here in my area we get a dearth between mid june and the end of august. Then we get a natural pollen flow of golden rods etc. on dry years hives can weaken greatly and fail to build up in the fall if not fed. So if I feed during this time only (I have been feeding through the fall flow into November), I can keep the colonies strong and then allow them to dwindle and produce winter bees according to their natural instincts and not push them heavy with feeding pollen sub.

It is hard for me to advise since we never see that. You have to experiment. We sometimes have a wet spell or a time between crops, but it is seldom more than a few weeks.

Feeding probably will not hurt, but the thing to remember is that they will eat a frame of honey for every frame of bees they raise, so don't extract the first crop and load on the patties without making sure they have lots of honey.

> This should allow a proper sized healthy brood nest without over populating and throwing their winter bee production off…

My policy is to keep lots of honey on my hives at all times, except in the middle of an heavy flow which is not likely to shut off.

> Did that make any sense?

Probably, but theory is one thing, and what you see when you open the hives is another. Look carefully at your bees. I know their ribs don't show, but there are other signs if they are not well-fed, like smaller bees and bees that seem less intelligent (I know that seems a bit weird, but it is true). Unlike mammals, I don't think it is possible to overfeed, but that is something we wonder about.

Thanks to all for the chat and especially for the comments on Global. I have been telling Mike he needs to work on shipping to get pallet loads to the customer cheaper (smaller lots will never be as cheap as a pallet). Then I have to convince beekeepers to club together and buy a pallet -- AND to buy ten patties per hive per year. If that happens, every beekeeper or club with 120 hives will need a pallet.

Something I cannot understand is why beekeepers will pay $100 for a puny package of bees year after year and lose them in winter or spring instead of building up their own bees' health.

[Buffalo Bee Farm]

i argue this point about spending a few dollar per hive a year in feed, heck even $50 a year between sugar and pollen sub is HALF the cost of a package much less a nuc.

I look at my bees like livestock, several beeks i know that fuss about feeding bees and the high cost of feeding also fully understand and invest in the best genetics, feed, mineral suppliments, equipment, vaccines, tractors, fence, etc for their cattle but yet the expect the same increased results from their bees with no real input...

When i spend money on my bees i do it because i expect a return in increased brood, suvivability, something to help me produce more nucs each year to help make a small net profit for my hobby. its not my primary source of income but i do always expect to see atleast a break even or better yet a net profit... if i wasnt still growing and buying equipment i would actually be making my wife's net income back when she was working (before babies), so the bees are paying for themselves and this is great. i hope after 2013 i will have all the equipment i need and all the hives i can handle working fulltime and will start to allow the bees to help pay my house payment so i can get the land and house paid for in under 15 years... I figured its worth the hard work till dark sometimes if i can be debt free from my bees by the time i am 50 and then i can work on my own terms... im 30 right now... but time flys...

But back on topic, i am looking seriously at Global and have atleast one other large beekeeper (although doesnt feed a ton) that want to partner for about 300lbs...

I also think i am going to do my own comparison and consumption test this summer once this new house gets completed in a few weeks and we move in...

Thanks for everything Allen, i enjoy your post on Bee-L, Here, and your diary. i have been following your diary since i started in beekeeping 4 years ago this month...

[dtompsett]

Trust me... I tried to convince people who were buying that a hive could eat 10 of these if you provide them... but many people think that once pollen starts coming in, the bees don't need a supplimental source. Our weather looks great... until you look at the longterm forcast... cold, rain, snow, freezing temps... How quickly will a hive use up their stocks of pollen they've been bringing in!

Out of a club of 50+ people... some with a few hives, some with 20+ hives... I had 5 people order patties. (admittedly, my attempt at a group buy was rather short notice. )

As for shipping... in Canada I went to the Manitoulin Transport website and requested an online quote. Quote came back almost immediately by email. Couple days later when I had an order ready, I submitted a quote again (with exact dimensions/weights), and it was essentially the same price (my weight had gone up)... Called up their 1-800 number, gave them my quote number... and 5 minutes later everything was processed and the truck was on it's way.

As Allen says, companies have been consolidating, finding ways to be more efficient, lower their costs while improving their service. With the advent of easy-to-use gps tracking/dispatching, things are far more efficient.

[Allen Martens]

I haven't fed patties for several years. Mostly, I've been feeding dry BeePro in spring and the odd time in fall if golden rods bloom very early. I am not sure if the fall feeding is beneficial and patties are probably a better way to go in fall. The spring results have been fantastic. Bees store the BeePro in the brood frames just like natural pollen. I find dry feeding is far more efficient than patty feeding. This year I've fed an average of about a pound of dry pollen substitute per hive in about a month. I think that's equivalent to a 3 lb patty.

When I used to feed patties I mixed BeePro with syrup in a wheelbarrow in the bee yard and shoveled the mixture. Making patties with sucrose worked well but hives that didn't eat them quickly resulted in bricks. Corn syrup patties stayed soft longer. Cost wise and time wise I like this method of patty making the best, but saw no better results than dry feeding.

[Allen Dick]

Hi Allen,

Thanks for the reminder about dry feeding. Good to hear from you again, and you bring up some interesting points and a different perspective to the discussion.

Ten years back, I used to feed the BeePro of that time period fairly extensively, (I'm sure there are pictures in the diary) along with a number of other products. My reason was mainly to keep the bees out of nearby cattle feed bunkers and chop bins where they would gather dust all day and keep the cattle off their feed during daylight, or away from nearby carpentry, where they would gather sawdust and bring curses my way. It worked.

As for effects on colony build-up, I always figured that dry feeding was mostly a make-work project for unemployed pollen foragers and that most of the dust was wasted but some did show up in the combs. We assume it was also eaten, although various test have shown that bees do not particularly like unsweetened BeePro patties and I don't know how stored BeePro would be much different. In sweetened patties, BeePro is consumed well and seems to be a good bee feed. Alberta's largest operation used to have patties custom-made every spring from BeePro. AFAIK, they were the only one, and I don't know if they still specify it or have switched to other formulas. They also ordered only one patty per hive, so I doubt it did much good.

Tony Lalonde sells a dry feed dispenser which some beekeepers swear by and maybe that is what you use? I' should get one. We used various systems, settling finally on supers full of dust with a telescoping lid set on top for protection from weather. The lid was held up a half-inch with duplex nails along the top of the box to allow easy access by the bees. That way we could gather the boxes up when the bee interest in them waned. As I recall, once real pollen started, the feeder visits dropped to zero, so we had a lot of left-overs, and they had to be discarded since the flours were too dirty to use in patties and would be stale and possibly harmful by the time they would be needed again for dry feed.

Speaking of stale, beekeepers often source their supplies from bee supply houses, some of which only handle small volumes and have erratic demand. Their stock of products like soy and yeast (and BeePro) may sometimes be a year old and still on the pallet in the back. Some may not rotate their stock. They are going to sell it to someone; they won't throw it out, even though it may be useless or even toxic due to age. We eliminate that risk when we purchase from a firm that has semiloads of all ingredients arriving regularly and sells direct to the user, or to warehouses which do not store product for more than short periods.

We also tried various ways of feeding supplement, including the bulk method and it is definitely cheaper if just material cost is considered. However, for us the cost of mixing and applying considering cleanup and other issues tended to reduce that advantage. Also our time is very valuable in the field and at feeding time, so simplicity is essential. We are beekeepers, not product sourcers and testers or feed mixers and leave that to the specialists while we specialize on our beekeeping.

We tried various solutions and found that the logistics of obtaining the correct amounts and proportions of the ingredients was challenging, and given our freshness criteria, effectively insoluble.

Ultimately we found, as have others, that relying on a just-in-time delivery of fresh, properly mixed and cleanly packaged product is actually the cheapest and most effective solution after considering that there is only one decision and one delivery, and there no leftovers that we might be tempted to utilize somehow, to the determent of our bees.

I think I have mentioned previously that Medhat found in his comparative patty tests that one particular batch of patties in his test had no positive effect on colony buildup, even though it was consumed well. Digging further, he discovered that the beekeeper had made patties with leftover supplies from the year before. They were consumed, but did no good.

Beekeepers tend to judge patties or dry feed by consumption rate because any other metric is difficult. Consumption is a very unreliable indicator, as it shows palatability, not actual benefit. Scientists do comparison studies and all agree that good patties, properly fed, increase brood rearing significantly. Product comparisons between patties tend to be inconclusive however, possibly due to differences in colony requirements at the time, although Medhat did find one commercial product did not work -- at all.

Another consideration is that we feed patties in spring and then need to work on hives and/or redistribute the patties according to need. Bulk feed was a pain in that it sometimes was glued right where we needed to separate frames and chunks would fall down or gum up our hands. With patties, we can move them aside or to a different hive if they are not fully consumed. We can also see exactly where the brood is by the consumption. Hired help can handle patties consistently, as well and the defined size ensures consistency between people and locations and a metric for comparison.

Anyhow, I mention my history and thinking to explain how we got to where we are, not to discount the methods you describe. They are all well-respected and perhaps superior in some regards.

FWIW, I plan to begin feeding dry feed since you reminded me and I am hoping you will point out other lapses in my thinking. BTW, have you tried Tony's dry feed?

[Allen Martens]

The question of what metrics a beekeepers should use to measure the effectiveness of a pollen substitute is a difficult one to answer. Seemingly, the most basic test is consumption. If bees are consuming a product, it has a possibility as a useful pollen substitute. With the early spring here in Manitoba, the Manitoba Honey Coop wasn't ready for the early orders they got for BeePro and were out of stock very early. I ended up buying Mann Lake's newest product, Ultra Bee at a substantially higher price. It is supposed to have a much high protein content, is bright yellow in color and has a unique smell compared to other pollen substitutes I have seen. A little later in spring, I purchased some BeePro and placed BeePro and Ultra Bee side by side in feeders. There seemed to be no difference in feeding intensity between the two, even when natural pollen was available and feeding was light, the intensity appeared to be about the same. So using consumption as the only metric, Ultra Bee does not appear to justify the higher price.

Other metrics that I think beekeepers need to use when evaluating their practices are spring build up and winter survival. Both are good indicators of healthy bees IMO. In addition to having dry pollen substitute out in spring I have been feeding syrup often and in smaller quantities. Allen, I think you stated in year diary years ago that a hive without liquid around the brood nest was a starving hive. Ever since I tried to adhere to this principle, my spring build up has been fantastic. My feeding is all rob feeding so I do work on averages for the yard not individual hives, maybe erring on feeding to much. Between, the dry feeding and syrup, my spring brood frames have moved from bullet pattern to solid frames. I run singles and last week the larger hives had brood in 8 frames which is incredible for this time of the year. The smaller hives have as much brood as I would like them to have this time of the year in case it gets cold. The other metric I use is winter survival. Last three years my winter losses have been between 3% and 10% at the time the hives were moved out of the wintering shed. So, currently I'm happy with practices, but nothing is static in beekeeping.

Beekeeping being local, I should mention a couple of things about my area. We have 3 strong pollen production times in spring. First lots of tree pollen from willows, poplar, oaks, and maples. This is followed by a dearth that has some pollen from wild fruit trees. Next the dandelions bloom which is followed by another dearth. Dutch clover starts blooming next, but we usually move to canola fairly early in this bloom. Without this natural pollen I might have to consider patties more strongly. I have used patties in the dearth between dandelions and clover quite often and also use patties for boosting nucs during summer.

We've tried various pollen feeders as well and are currently using barrels laid on the side with several sticks thrown into the substitute and the closed end elevated about 6 inches. I try to face the open end south.

I wasn't aware that Tony Lalonde was selling substitute. I will look into it for next year.

[Allen Dick]

Good points. Some comments:

*The problem with consumption as a metric is that bees will consume even things that are not good for them if there is enough sugar with it. The useless patties in Medhat's test were consumed the same as the good ones.

*The Co-ops generally have good fresh product and good prices, too. They have the beekeeper's interest at heart, too and that combination is hard to beat.

*I agree about spring buildup and winter survival. Consistent results are very important, as each failure pollutes the equipment pool and reduces profitability, regardless of production, another metric. Feeding both syrup and protein may not be absolutely necessary, but as with any livestock, even short term shortages of feed result in adverse events that come directly off the profit line. Feeding is insurance. Beekeepers tell me that their feed was wasted and they quit feeding. because they had a good season and now have too many bees. A few years later, they are back to feeding more religiously.

*I have a solution for too many bees, BTW. Just stack up the extra hives into two-queen colonies. In fall combine them down and they will winter 100% Of course next year you will have the same problem. Darn! Not only that, you'll have to buy more barrels.

*Last time I looked my brood was uneven, but I had not begun with protein.

*BTW, what are you using for varroa?

*We don't get anything like the pollen you describe here.

*I haven't seen the new Mann Lake product. Will have to take a look. If the bees took the same amount, I'd think they got more nutrition from the higher protein item, but that does not necessarily follow. Feed conversion as any livestock producer knows is not just poundage and assay. High protein for bees is not all it is cracked up to be. There are optimal levels and that depends on many things at any given time. Also, even if we look at protein per dollar, what we really want is all the good things you say you are seeing.

*Just not losing hives or having to baby them is worth an awful lot of money.

After all, I hear beekeeping is easy. The bees do all the work and the beekeeper just goes out now and then and takes the honey, then goes out and spends the money -- right?

Thanks.

[cam bishop]

I'm finding the paper on these patties a bit tough and think I should carry a box knife to slash the patties when I stack them so the paper is not a barrier to the upper patties in the stack. Nonetheless, the bees are tearing up the paper and throwing it out at a good rate, so maybe I am just being fussy.

I am using the Mann Lake patties, I tear a strip of the paper off the bottom of the patty before I set it on the hive. I find it improves consumption a little and makes less work for the bees.