OA Dosage

General Discussion of Diary Posts and Questions on Beekeeping Matters
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MT204
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OA Dosage

Unread post by MT204 » October 21st, 2016, 8:53 pm

Allen, I noticed in your diary post the dosages you showed of OA were per beehive?
Is that per beehive as in single deep, double deep or per hive body.
Thanks

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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by Allen Dick » October 22nd, 2016, 7:53 am

I don't know. The data is European and the company in the credit at the bottom of the table has nothing on its website. I 'borrowed' the table from Heilyser's site.

No matter, though, really. While in drizzling, limiting the dose is important to avoid harm to the bees, in evaporation, the dose does not seem at all critical.

As we learn to live with varroa rather than seek to utterly wipe out every last mite -- we have learned it is not possible -- we now work to keep the mites below an economic threshold. Consequently, achieving an extra percent kill in any one treatment becomes less critical for methods that can be repeated often, like OA evaporation.

On the other hand, high efficacy is very important, however, for treatments like Apivar or Apistan that are expensive, take six weeks, and which are difficult to fit into the annual routine since, unlike OA evaporation, that kill can only be done infrequently.

Choosing the dose is a trade-off. From the table, we see that higher doses will come closer to a total kill, but we have to remember that higher doses begin to kill more than a few bees and could be harmful, although I have no data beyond the study posted here recently which offers this slide. http://www.tandfonline.com/na101/home/l ... 003_b.jpeg See also my October 2nd post.

We also should remember that multiple treatments at a lower dose are likely to be more successful and also achieve more uniform results across a number of hives or on any one hive since any one application may have application errors or failures that are likely to average down over multiple treatments. It is not unusual for any one treatment to achieve much lower efficacy that the average or the expected result. Repeating the treatment may very well be much more successful.

Consider one treatment at 90% efficacy. If that is Apivar, it takes six weeks and can cost $10+/-. The same treatment with OA takes ten minutes and costs ten cents.

The Apivar cannot likely be repeated again until the next season. The OA can be done again in a week or two -- and again a week later...

90% varroa kill once a year is insufficient to control varroa, however 90%, then 90% of the survivors, then 90% of those survivors within a month or so achieves a theoretical 99.9% control!

Of course, in real life, brood in the hive can lower efficacy for OA (and Apivar to a lesser extent, too) but OA can be applied any day the temperature is above 5 degrees C, and in Alberta, that opportunity comes every month of the year.

When people express concern about brood in the hive reducing OA efficacy, we must remember there is an huge difference between drone brood and worker brood.

Drone brood can harbour five developing female mites, but worker brood typically only harbors two (plus the mother, of course). Thus fall brood is less of a worry than summer brood since drones are only reared (normally) in spring and summer.

A corollary: if summer treatment is contemplated, simultaneous drone brood removal could increase impact of OA treatments greatly.

Even if each treatment efficacy drops to 70%, the result of three treatments comes to a theoretical 97.3% control.

I'm obviously using simple math and simple assumptions, but the conclusions are in the ballpark +/- 3% nineteen times out of twenty. <laugh here>
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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by Allen Dick » October 22nd, 2016, 1:03 pm

I tend to fine tune these posts. Please see http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2016 ... ct22nd2016
for the latest version, including corrections on number of mites raised in brood.
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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by MT204 » October 22nd, 2016, 9:57 pm

Thanks for the reply.
I have been experimenting with different types of vaporizers for the last few years. I have finally come up with what I think is one of the better ones out there. I have looked at a lot of the European designs and the ones that seem to work the best are the ones that have sealed or semi sealed containers.
I have attached a brief video as there has been a lot of discussion as to the length of time it takes to vaporize OA that is damp or dry. As one can see from the video if the OA is wet there is a lot more vapor which is steam also. Who knows maybe the steam would help disperse the OA vapor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwCkPw-yCJk

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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by Jiminycric » October 27th, 2016, 2:16 pm

I'm interested in finding more about the OA - what are some good resources to get on the subject?


TIA,

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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by Allen Dick » October 27th, 2016, 2:22 pm

I have finally come up with what I think is one of the better ones out there. I have looked at a lot of the European designs and the ones that seem to work the best are the ones that have sealed or semi sealed containers.
What are the qualities that you use to judge the units?
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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by Allen Dick » October 27th, 2016, 2:23 pm

I'm interested in finding more about the OA - what are some good resources to get on the subject?
What is it you wish to know?
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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by Jiminycric » October 27th, 2016, 2:28 pm

Allen Dick wrote:
What is it you wish to know?
Well, since I have not heard of it till reading this thread, where to start?
I have read your most recent post there on your diary page, and from what I gather here, what's the best way to apply it?

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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by Allen Dick » October 27th, 2016, 9:42 pm

Well, I suppose that drizzle is the best way to start if you have no experience or equipment since you can do it with simple implements like ketchup bottle for applicator.

I suggest you Google "How to treat for varroa using oxalic acid drizzle". That's what I do.
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Conversation Lifted From Facebook

Unread post by Allen Dick » October 29th, 2016, 8:50 am

New research shows Varroa mites are made up of Oxalic Acid Vapor
Honestly, that's all I can figure. I've done 7 treatments of OAV, every 5 days since Sept 13. I'm counting the mite drops every day, and after every treatment the counts get higher and higher. I've tallied the 5 day mite counts between each treatment, and it has increased with every treatment. Today was 2 days after the 7th treatment and I had 721 dead mites on the bottom board. That's the second highest count on this hive since I started treating, and exceeds the previous second highest count of 552 which happened yesterday! I've now killed over 8600 mites on this one hive. The more I pump oxalic acid vapor into the hive, the more mites I get. I conclude, therefore, that mites are spontaneously generated, and are made from Oxalic Acid Vapor.
Comments

Charles Linder> I read that post, somethings not right with this guys methods! 8600 mites in one hive?? Me thinks his math is a bit funny!

Hossein Yeganehrad> The number is very high you should have other plan before you lose your hive. You may have to feed some supplument to prevent immunity issue true blood deficiency and virus attach. Call me if you need more information

Allen Dick> 8600 is only about 20℅ of 49,000 bees and that is about the population we'd expect on September or October. Obviously that is a high infestation, but not unheard of. Moreover at this time of year the brood area is reducing, forcing a larger percentage of mites to be on adult bees and not in brood so counts will go up until they are all out. The vapor is effective for about a week before the effect wears off, do keep on treating and at some point no to far away, the numbers will drop off steeply.

Charles Linder> Not sure where your at, but 49k in september is a pretty high number, ours are more like 20k tops and 20% infestation is so high I doubt you could ever achieve 49K

Allen Dick> Central Alberta. I shook packages from our production hives at the end of October one year and the average weight per hive was ten pounds as I recall.

Charles Linder> well 3lbs would be 12k so your definitely up there! by that time of the year hear that many bees are going to starve by spring, how much feed you leaving them?

Allen Dick> Oh. I see. That was supposed be 40,000 . Damn phone. My minimum weight going into winter was 55 kilos not including floor and lid. Often had too much feed left over in the spring

Charles Linder> wow! our target is around 15 kilos of feed, trying to keep smaller hives winterbound......but we are also doing almonds so huge hives are a bit of a problem.

Jean-Marc Le Dorze> Ours are going into winter at about 68-70 kg's excluding pallet and lid. I have been following the thread on BS. after 5 treatments of 5 days apart his numbers are still pretty high. Should come down soon, but it has not, for one reason or another.

Charles Linder> Hes got to be doing something wrong..... not enough vapor or too hot.....

Jean-Marc Le Dorze> Perhaps, he claimed bees had/have 4 frames of brood as of 10 days ago. I would think the same but we have not seen that sudden drop in mite numbers, yet he claims he is killing 1500 plus mites every 5 days. I would have said dead hive walking, but apparently it is still going.

Allen Dick> I don't think he is doing anything wrong. He is getting good drops. It takes a while to get ahead of the mites when they are this bad. Odds for colony survival are not great with such high loads, but some bees can stand high loads. Some can't.

Charles Linder> by the third round he should have had most if not all phoretics and stopped new ones from forming. First round gets phoretics usually around 95% and from that point all you should be seeing are new hatch mites, catch them before they get in a cell and you should be good in 16 days. if hes virus free they will survive, if they have a virus, its too late for winter bees to be healthy

Jean-Marc Le Dorze> Yes but, here we are 25 days into it, so new hatch had plenty of varroa
still... for whatever reason. Numbers should finally start dropping but
stranger things have happened before.

Allen Dick> Well, if facts and logic do not fit theory, it is time to examine the assumptions. Also if Apivar and Apistan take 42 days to achieve their expected kill in hives with brood, why do we think that oxalic should take less? Looking at the assumptions, people assume that the effect of each blast is persistent for a week or so after each blast since the increased drop lasts that long, but maybe all the effect takes place on the day of the fumigation and the continued drop is merely the result of varroa weakening and dying slowly over the ensuing week. If so, then there are days between blasts on which emerging mites can reenter cells without damage, extending the number of treatments required and period of time required to achieve control when brood is present since the killing effect is episodic and not continuous as it is with the strips. A profile of the kill I observed in 2011 can be seen at Image

Charles Linder> excellent thought Allen, we do pretty well know the effect of OA vapors is short lived, but mites exposed take a 36-48 hours to die. your point about renetry is correct but its assumed that mites stay phoretic for 2-3 days so in THEORY a 5 day window is good. we do know that 7 is too long. In this case what seems odd is the huge numbers that seemingly survived the blast and got back into the cells before the next blast. I don't think we can compare it to apistan or apivar, since those are contact killers and we are useing 42 days to ensure they all get exposed.

Allen Dick> I suppose we have to consider the possibility of re-infestation from outside the hive especially if there are other hives in the region and there is good flying weather.
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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by Jiminycric » November 1st, 2016, 8:22 pm

Does anyone have much knowledge on using essential oils for treating the mites?
I have been following a beekeeper from Ohio that uses it and swears by it, but am curious to see if anyone here has experience with it?


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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by Countryboy » November 1st, 2016, 10:19 pm

I have been following a beekeeper from Ohio that uses it and swears by it,
I know an Ohio bee inspector who has told people to put vegetable oil on a Bounty paper towel, and put it between the boxes. The bees will chew it up and shred it and drag it out as trash. In the process it coats all the mites with the oil and it kills them.

That same bee inspector says that essential oils kill mites because they are an oil. It coats the mites and kills them.

What that bee inspector doesn't tell you is that his family used to keep 400 hives. Unfortunately, they never learned how to deal with the varroa mite. They just kept restocking with packages. That family also has a bee supply business. As the bee supply business has grown, their bees became neglected even more. In 2007 all (or most) of their bees died. (They claimed that in the fall, the bees were all summer bees and they hadn't started raising any winter bees, so they knew they were all going to die.) In the spring of 2008, they dumped about 80 packages in hives. They were so busy with the bee supply business they never got around to do anything more with the hives. I offered to buy their hives and equipment since they were too busy to run hives anymore. They wouldn't sell to me, because there is too much of a chance of foulbrood in used equipment. (Do they have a foulbrood problem they don't want to admit to?) Personally, if I was worried about foulbrood in my abandoned hives, I would much rather sell it all to an experienced beekeeper who would make sure it didn't become a problem, rather than letting the hives sit abandoned and neglected for years. (Since foulbrood hasn't became a problem, I can only surmise that varroa killed their hives, and wax moths took care of any foulbrood problem.)

I know another Ohio beekeeper - he's pretty popular on YouTube. He got into beekeeping a couple years after me, and I've been keeping bees 10 or 11 years. His bees normally die out every winter. I don't think he has ever harvested more than 50 or 60 pounds of honey in a year, and I know he has gotten up to close to 15 or 20 hives before. (Any hive that survives, or swarm that gets caught, gets split a half dozen ways.) Yet he's pretty popular on YouTube, and he likes to thump his chest about how good of a beekeeper he is, and how hard it is to make money with bees.

Be careful listening to Ohio beekeepers. Some of them are just plain full of it.
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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by Countryboy » November 1st, 2016, 10:24 pm

I have been following a beekeeper from Ohio that uses it and swears by it, but am curious to see if anyone here has experience with it?
Just out of curiosity, why don't you ask that Ohio beekeeper about his experiences with essential oils?

How many hives is the beekeeper running?

How much honey did his hives produce? (Or how is he making money with his hives?)

What essential oils does he use?

How does he apply the essential oils?

When does he apply the essential oils?

How many years has he been using essential oils?

What percent of hives does he lose in summer?

What percent of hives does he lose over winter?

The devil is in the details. Find out the details of the beekeeping operation of the beekeeper who swears by the essential oils. (Make sure he is swearing BY the essential oils, rather than swearing AT them.)

Last winter I had 5% losses. The winter before was about 25% losses. Should I swear by the mite treatment I used last fall (Apivar) since I only had 5% losses? It sure worked better than the mite treatment I used the winter before. (It had to be using Apivar that helped me have better wintering. It couldn't have been the really mild winter...or combining weaker colonies in the fall so colonies were stronger going into winter, which I didn't do much the winter before.) Of course, I used Apivar the winter before too... (See, I may have been able to use any other mite treatment last winter and still had good overwintering because I combined weaker hives in the fall, and the winter was really mild. And I might swear by that new treatment, when the treatment was not what was completely responsible.)
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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by Jiminycric » November 2nd, 2016, 8:05 am

Just out of curiosity, why don't you ask that Ohio beekeeper about his experiences with essential oils?
How many hives is the beekeeper running?
How much honey did his hives produce? (Or how is he making money with his hives?)
What essential oils does he use?
How does he apply the essential oils?
When does he apply the essential oils?
How many years has he been using essential oils?
What percent of hives does he lose in summer?
What percent of hives does he lose over winter?
The guy is on YouTube under "Don the fat bee man" - some of the info I have gathered is the oils are fed to them in the sugar water (but also can be vaporized and blown in). He has been doing the oil treatment for about 15 years and before used OA. His main source of income that I gather is selling nukes and hives, beeswax, propolis. He runs at least 1000 hives, but may have more (he really does not say how many but has a few bee yards).

Oils that are used; winter green, tea tree, and lemon grass.

And yes I can be asking more about it and see what his responses are, but thought to see if anyone else is doing it. If only one beekeeper is doing it, how come not others? Is it hard to get the amounts right in the mixtures? If it is successful, would it be a cheaper safer way of treating for mites along with other things?



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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by Allen Dick » November 2nd, 2016, 8:53 am

Just remember that not everyone tells the truth and the whole truth all the time. Actually, to be brutally frank, no one can.

For one thing, we may not know the truth, there may be no 'truth', there may be more than one truth, or the 'truth' may be transient.

Even if the intent is to tell the truth, most people do not actually know what they are really doing most of the time for many reasons. Watch yourself for a few minutes. Do you really know everything you are doing. Everything?

I am acutely aware of the elusiveness of truth and that is one reason I write this diary. Writing (and re-writing) forces me to confront the fact that I am not observant, am easily distracted, edit what I present and what I do not for reasons of time and also discretion, and often see things differently the next day, the next week, or next year. I also forget more than I remember.

Any narrative is merely a tiny model of a reality, real or imagined and can never completely mirror the actuality.

So what I am saying is that, yes, listen to others, but be careful what you believe.
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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by Countryboy » November 2nd, 2016, 9:42 am

The guy is on YouTube under "Don the fat bee man" - some of the info I have gathered is the oils are fed to them in the sugar water (but also can be vaporized and blown in). He has been doing the oil treatment for about 15 years and before used OA. His main source of income that I gather is selling nukes and hives, beeswax, propolis. He runs at least 1000 hives, but may have more (he really does not say how many but has a few bee yards).
Don "the fat beeman" Kuchenmeister is not in Ohio. He is in Georgia. Just because someone has a few beeyards doesn't mean they have 1000 hives. If I remember correctly, he was trying to sell his beekeeping operation (or find a partner to take over) a few years ago, and he only had a couple hundred hives. He talks like he is retired now, and I suspect he only has a couple beeyards of bees.

I'll tell you a little secret. Anyone with 1000 hives can work a hive, or do beekeeping work, very fast and efficiently. Don is not fast or efficient. He tries to do stuff the cheap way, which costs him time and kills his efficiency and productivity.

I don't know how to say this politely, so I'll be blunt. Yes, every once in a while he has some useful info, but for the most part, I consider him to be a big pile of BS. I do not consider him to be a successful commercial beekeeper. (All you have to do is check out the students in his classes that he taught how to be a commercial beekeeper, and it becomes very clear that they do not understand commercial beekeeping.) Just because you sell a nuc does not make you a commercial beekeeper. I would consider him to be a big hobbyist. It's hard for me to even consider him to be much of a sideliner, because he doesn't give me the impression that he understands how to make money. (He is always trying to save money in ways which is counterproductive to making money. Hobbyists won't catch it, but folks who know how to make money with bees see these things.) I would consider him to be closer to a snake oil salesman than a commercial beekeeper.

Don makes money with the Dixie Bee Supply, selling bee supplies and queens and nucs.
Don makes money by begging for donations because the beekeeping isn't profitable for him.
Don makes money by making YouTube videos. (I would estimate that he has earned in excess of $15,000-$20,000 from YouTube, based on my own earnings and number of views.)
Don makes money by tutoring brand new hobbyists with his classes on how to become commercial beekeepers.

Last spring, I made a video (but never got around to uploading it - I couldn't decide if I should put it on or not) about the difference between internet beekeeping gurus and charlatans (fakes and frauds). One of the tips I told people on how to recognize the fakers was if they gave themselves the nickname of "beeman". In my opinion, that is a sign of a hobbyist who is trying to BS novices into believing they are some kind of beekeeping expert.

Don has videos telling you how to do every "treatment free" treatment imaginable. (Used to, he was touting fogging with FGMO.) The thing beginners don't catch onto, is that he has tried all these different treatments because none of them work successfully. He is a big advocate of small cell too. (Why does he need FGMO, essential oils, or whatever if he has small cell?)

From what I have seen, "successful" treatment free beekeepers (like the fat beeman) are all similar in that they have learned how to raise queens, and they try to outbreed the mites by splitting hives to replace losses.

Just ask yourself what kind of beekeeping success you want to have. Do you want to have the kind of success the fat beeman has? (I don't. You can see his standard of living in his videos.) Do you want to have to be begging for donations after you retire? Allen Dick is a retired commercial beekeeper too. Do you see him begging for donations? No, you see him playing with his yachts. (And while I don't know his personal finances, I'm not aware of him living on an inheritance like Dee Lusby, another treatment free "commercial" beekeeper.) Do you want the success of Mike Palmer? Do you want the success of Michael Bush? (another treatment-free beekeeper who hasn't extracted any honey in several years, sells books, gives talks, and has bee camps to make money. He had 200 hives last year, and 40 this year, which he attributes to the "steady decline of negligence" but not mites. He has offered to take on an intern/apprentice, but he wouldn't be able to pay them anything (which means he's not making money with his bees) but he might be able to work something out if they wanted to raise and sell queens.

Be very cautious about internet beekeeping gurus. Quite a few are fakes and frauds. There are some popular YouTube gurus who don't participate on beekeeping forums because people on the forums will confront their BS. On YouTube, you don't have as much audience interaction, so they can get away with pretending to be an expert.
Find a beekeeper who consistently makes money with bees and bee products. (honey, pollinating, queens, nucs, etc.) Find a beekeeper who always has plenty of bees in the spring. If they consistently make money and consistently have excess bees in the spring, they are probably worth paying attention to.
Be cautious about beekeepers who make their money by giving talks, selling books, bee supplies, YouTube videos, etc.
B. Farmer Honey
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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by Jiminycric » November 2nd, 2016, 1:54 pm

Thanks CountryBoy, I appreciate the response (and partially why I was asking). The videos had caught my eye, and were intriguing. Since you had pointed it out, I can see that he does not make a lot from his hives, almost looks to break even.

I hope to be able to build a successful bee operation that can supports itself - biggest thing love to learn a few techniques and pick one that will work the best for me.
Allen Dick wrote: I am acutely aware of the elusiveness of truth and that is one reason I write this diary. Writing (and re-writing) forces me to confront the fact that I am not observant, am easily distracted, edit what I present and what I do not for reasons of time and also discretion, and often see things differently the next day, the next week, or next year. I also forget more than I remember.

Any narrative is merely a tiny model of a reality, real or imagined and can never completely mirror the actuality.

So what I am saying is that, yes, listen to others, but be careful what you believe.
This is one of the reasons I like being a part of this forum and reading the diary pages - it shows you are always looking/questioning/improving things as you go, and offer a straight up answer.


Thanks!

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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by Allen Dick » November 2nd, 2016, 4:00 pm

Does anyone have much knowledge on using essential oils for treating the mites?
Essential oils, like many other things people have tried, including hammers, can kill mites, but what is the collateral damage and how easy and reliable are they to use?

In fact some propriety mite treatments on the market employ essential oils. The problem, as with all methods, is how to get a reasonable kill of varroa without unreasonable effort or cost and without killing or harming bees or humans.

Additionally, most treatments are dependent on colony factors like population, hive configuration, flow conditions, ambient temperature, etc., and fumigation methods like these are affected the most.

Also, they can be expensive.
Allen Dick, RR#1 Swalwell, Alberta, Canada T0M 1Y0
51° 33'39.64"N 113°18'52.45"W
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/Allen%27s%20Beehives.kmz
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Countryboy
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Joined: November 8th, 2010, 9:37 pm
Location: Central Ohio
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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by Countryboy » November 2nd, 2016, 5:24 pm

I hope to be able to build a successful bee operation that can supports itself - biggest thing love to learn a few techniques and pick one that will work the best for me.
How many hive operation are you wanting to run? There is a big difference between running a successful 10 hive operation, and running a couple thousand hive operation.

I would encourage you to concentrate on learning how to keep hives alive. (making sure they have plenty of feed for winter, mite control, etc.)
I would encourage you to learn how to rear queens. This way you can split hives to replace losses without needing to buy queens.
If you decide to go into honey production, I would encourage you to find local stores to sell wholesale through. While I do sell at farmers markets, they take a lot of time. (I have sales of $30-$50 an hour at shows and farmers markets, including drive time. I sell about $250-$300 an hour when delivering honey to stores.) At the end of the year, I find that most of my stores will sell a comparable dollar amount to what I sold at a farmers market. (I usually sell $3,000-$4,000 a year to each store at wholesale price. The best farmers market I do I can get sales of about $6K in a 6 month season. Other farmers markets I've done were $3k-$4K for a summer.)

Are you an extrovert (a people person)? You may enjoy doing farmers markets. Are you an introvert? Selling to stores wholesale may be easier too. Only you know your strengths and weaknesses.
B. Farmer Honey
Central Ohio

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Jiminycric
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Re: OA Dosage

Unread post by Jiminycric » November 3rd, 2016, 8:03 am

I'm planning on slowly building up my hives - not ready for any large scale operation for sure - so that I can learn to keep them alive. This year was fairly successful for me, now getting ready to go thru my first winter. Then planning on having 4 more hives going next year.
Rearing queens is on my list to start on in the spring and maybe I can split a couple times during that time. Got a bit of material to freak up on in that department.

Jiminycric
- Jiminycric
Strathmore, Alberta

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