Wood for bottom board & tele lid

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Biermann
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Wood for bottom board & tele lid

Unread post by Biermann »

Hello,

I have decided to insulate my hive with 2" extruded polystyrene foam board, glued on the long sides to stay on year round and removable on the short sides.

Now my question: to make a new, larger bottom board (4" larger then standard) what material do I use? 3/4" normal plywood or pressure treated for longer live? Same for the tele lid. Does the treatment affect the bees?

Make the sides for the tele lid higher to allow for insulation and moisture absorbent under the lid?

Should I put 2" epf under the bottom board?

Your help would be much appreciated.

Cheers, Joerg
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Vance G
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Re: Wood for bottom board & tele lid

Unread post by Vance G »

I just use 1/2 inch cdx for my bottom boards and the cleats/feet whatever you call them on the bottom are slices of scrap 2byX pine. I should soak them in the copper sulfate wood preservative but in my high desert it takes several years for them to get rotten and then I just knock them off and glue and staple on new ones. My covers are equally flimsy made of 3/8" plywood with a 5/16" rim to make room for a pollen patty and a couple of stiffeners ripped from 2 by scrap, in this case 3/8" thick. I put 2" epe under that for insulation in the winter. Epe must be foil faced or other wise protected or the bees will demoilish it.

I applaud your insulating the boxes but I think it is going to be pretty prone to getting damaged.
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Charlie
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Re: Wood for bottom board & tele lid

Unread post by Charlie »

Biermann,
I used to custom build all my hives out of 2 x 12's because I got a better product than a standard super for $16 Canadian. However after buying a couple of hives from Allen in the EPS format and using them for a bit I am a believer in the EPS boxes.
I too use 2 inch extruded styrene for my hive tops. I buy the the metal hive tops from bee maid four for $6.95 and cut these styrene a half inch smaller in each direction I then cut 4 inch wide strips of quarter-inch plywood and cut the size to fit inside the metal but on the outside of the styrene. I also cut one piece of quarter-inch plywood the same size as the styrene and basically glue everything together with the expanding urethane foam. Building the telescopic top in this fashion allows it to fit the EPS boxes fairly snugly and at the same time it still fits all the other hives.

I for one think the extra five dollars and change for the EPS boxes over the standard supers are well worth it, winter comes and you're ready to go without doing anything. Less work equals more free time in my mind

My hives sit approximately 1 foot off the ground on 4 x 4's. I have never insulated the bottoms and I don't believe I've ever had a problem because they weren't insulated. I believe Allen also answered this question a week or two back
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1753&p=5507&hilit=insulate#p5507 Re: Think winter
postby Allen Dick » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:37 am
Insulating floors is a waste of time and material IMO. Heat rises and bees are not down there anyhow.
You may want to read the whole thread.

<http://bpgrower.com/assets/beeblock/Bee ... heetLR.pdf> $21 and change Canadian
<http://www.beemaidbeestore.com/product. ... ProdID=269> $6.95 Canadian
<http://www.beemaidbeestore.com/product. ... ProdID=270> $15.95 Canadian
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Colino
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Re: Wood for bottom board & tele lid

Unread post by Colino »

Joerg:
I build what I call Semi EPS boxes, I posted about them in the thread below.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1655
As for making your bottom board bigger you really don't have to, use a regular size B.B. and leave the insulation hang over, it does no harm. For the first box I insulate the whole thing and keep the insulation down a couple inches on the 2nd box so my lids still fit.
Narcissism is easy because it's me or I, Empathy is hard because it's they or them.-Colino
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Biermann
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Re: Wood for bottom board & tele lid

Unread post by Biermann »

Thank you all for the constructive replies and links.

Simplicity is my goal too and you have given me the right direction.

I still need to dig a little deeper with the bottom insulation.

You know our climate well enough, if I stand outside on the ground without moving in January for 24 hours, the cold will slowly creep in to my feed and I will be dead after the first day is over. If i stand on 2" of EPS, that process will be much slower, so why not save the bees some energy or do we want them cold, but not frozen, so they use less food?

I am just trying to help the little bug(ger)s.

Cheers, Joerg
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Re: Wood for bottom board & tele lid

Unread post by Allen Dick »

Next time you see bees standing on the hive floor for hours in winter, please take a picture. I've never seen that.

Most beekeeping mistakes, as in the rest of life, are the result of applying logic to incorrect assumptions, or torturing facts.

Over-insulating is one of them. I've never seen experienced beekeepers insulate floors, even when I was an inspector for the wintering program in the eighties and people were trying everything. I have, however seen beginners do it a number of times - for one winter.
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Charlie
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Re: Wood for bottom board & tele lid

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by Biermann » Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:34 am
or do we want them cold, but not frozen, so they use less food?
There is actually some good data on this and I think if you Google at what temperature they store bees at for the winter in buildings you find it's actually quite cool. If you keep the bees to warm they don't cluster and use a lot more food and if it is too cold the bees use a lot more food. In my mind the real question that needs to be answered is what kills bees during the winter. Here is my short list in no particular order, maybe others can add to it.

1-Mites or parasites
2-Starvation
3-A week hive in the fall that should've been combined with another week hive
4-A wet hive obviously not properly sealed
5-Mice

You'll notice the cold did not make the list. If I have properly taken care of my hives for the above five conditions I feel I'm going to make it through the winter in very good shape. The one thing that is not on my list is that I use locally raised Queens and I'm 99.9% sure they're not grafted. I'm assuming Everyone knows all Queens are not equal, and you should have quality stock. A poor Queen could also be the reason for # three.

The above list also reminds me that I need to go remove the Apivar strips
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Re: Wood for bottom board & tele lid

Unread post by Allen Dick »

I think Charlie pretty well nailed it. The time that internal high warmth becomes important is after brood rearing starts to get going in the spring.

Bottom board temperatures are never a factor. However, I do use auger holes higher up so my bees have entrance above the floor.

The floor is usually covered with dead bees and junk by spring, and not a nice place to walk although stronger hives clean them out - but only on warm days.

We need to remember that insulation also slows interior warming on nice days and can prevent hives from taking advantage of a few warm hours on good days.
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Biermann
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Re: Wood for bottom board & tele lid

Unread post by Biermann »

@Allen, this:
You know our climate well enough, if I stand outside on the ground without moving in January for 24 hours, the cold will slowly creep in to my feed and I will be dead after the first day is over. If i stand on 2" of EPS, that process will be much slower, so why not save the bees some energy or do we want them cold, but not frozen, so they use less food?

was more meant for the person that can equate to five feet of frozen ground under the hive and the cold going up in to the hive, if I prevent it, it will reduce the amount of energy the bees have to generate to stay warm in the cluster, or not?

This one
Next time you see bees standing on the hive floor for hours in winter, please take a picture. I've never seen that.
did not belong in the answer. If you don't like my questions or the way I ask, don't answer. I am trying to do my first year right, if you dislike that, also: don't answer. :wink:

Thanks to the rest and I will make pictures once I am ready to wrap in Nov.-Dec., depending how our weather goes. Way to nice at this point, but we will take it.

Cheers, Joerg
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Re: Wood for bottom board & tele lid

Unread post by Allen Dick »

I am trying to do my first year right, if you dislike that, also: don't answer.
If you want to do the first year right, lose the attitude and listen to the old timer.
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Re: Wood for bottom board & tele lid

Unread post by Biermann »

Thanks for the advise Allen. Will try to do, but, I am probably as stubborn as you and truly determent to do it right, but also not afraid to ask questions that I have.

Cheers, Joerg
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Re: Wood for bottom board & tele lid

Unread post by Allen Dick »

Hey! It does not bother me at all, and they are your bees.

I learned everything the hardest way I could, and several times over, so why shouldn't you?

Fifty years from now you will be writing a diary and warning people about various follies.

They will ignore your advice, and you will laugh.
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Re: Wood for bottom board & tele lid

Unread post by Biermann »

Then I am 111, thanks for the confidence in my health(y living :? ).

Cheers, Sorry, no lecture book from me, enough out there already.

Joerg
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Re: Wood for bottom board & tele lid

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All in good fun. Good luck.
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Re: Wood for bottom board & tele lid

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Seen a movie once called "Grumpy Old Men." I think I just read the sequel. :D
Narcissism is easy because it's me or I, Empathy is hard because it's they or them.-Colino
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Re: Wood for bottom board & tele lid

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Joerg wrote:
five feet of frozen ground under the hive and the cold going up in to the hive,
Transfer of heat is always from hot to cold. Cold is the absence of heat.
Narcissism is easy because it's me or I, Empathy is hard because it's they or them.-Colino
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Re: Wood for bottom board & tele lid

Unread post by Vance G »

My hives are wrapped and have good top insulation and set on the frozen ground or on an unused concrete slab if available and I don't think it matters much. If you have epe to spare, go ahead for sure. I think the epe hives that are in use in northern Europe have epe bottom boards. If my mite treated colonies have a minimum weight of 125 lbs and I wrap them and supply about ten pounds of dry sugar on newspaper on the top bars and a ventilation hole in the face of the upper hive body right below the handhold, the only fatalities are queen failures. Well, one starved last winter but it had to work at it.
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Re: Wood for bottom board & tele lid

Unread post by Allen Dick »

I think the epe hives that are in use in northern Europe have epe bottom boards.
Good point Swienty sells them, too, and in America, BeeMax hives here do too, but I think that is as much due to the fact that the manufacturer wants to make the whole hive and have more products to sell, not any need for insulation. In fact, those floors usually, in my experience, have a screened hole in them. I have used some and they are pretty much useless. They are clumsy and break and/or distort under any amount of weight. The lids they sell are pretty useless as well IMO, but there are some European systems that are all EPS that look quite usable. Some of them do not use top entrances. One must remember, though, that the European climates are very different from ours in significant ways.

As far as protection from cold beneath the cluster is concerned, some successful North American beekeepers, including some as far north as Edmonton, use screened bottoms year-round. I know of no commercial beekeepers anywhere north of the Mason-Dixon line who do, however. Commercial beekeepers try out all the ideas that come along and quite quickly determine which are practical and which are just noise. Commercial beekeepers also avoid ideas that work well one year and fail completely the next.

While open bottoms in winter do not seem to set strong colonies back much according to reports, there are good reasons to use bottom entrances that are limited in size, and one is strong winds and drifting snow. Most beekeepers have just a standard entrance on the bottom and a top entrance. Many reduce the bottom entrance, as much for mice as any other reason. Come spring, though, bottom entrance restriction can pay off if the clusters are small, but become detrimental in very strong hives.

My friends who own the mold for the Beaver boxes use wood floors. Of course Beaver would love for them to buy a floor and lid mold, too, to expand the product line, but that would only benefit Beaver, not them. EPS in floors attracts ants, too, and any spaces that the bees cannot access tend to become homes for ant nests in some regions.

All, the EPS nuc systems all have EPS bottom surfaces or bottoms, partly for the same reasons as above, and in nucs, unlike two-story standard hives the bees are actually close to the floors. In some, the bees are fed on the floor.

I do have some hybrid insulated wood floors that came with various hobby outfits I bought over the years, but they ht the scrap piles pretty well as soon as they cam onto the place.
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