SuperDFM – HoneyBee

[cam bishop]

There has been much discussion on this product on Beesource. Thought I'd post about it here. It actually be more than snake oil, which was my knee-jerk reaction.

"Description
SuperDFM – HoneyBee contains a combination of LAB’s as well as beneficial
Bacillus spp., and yeast used to diminish disease in bees and brood.
Feed both Spring and Fall for Healthier Hives - 10 grams (one table spoon) per hive.

Establish Beneficial Microflora
✔ Helps Increase Bee Colony Health
✔ May help inhibit chalkbrood (Ascophera apis)
✔ Microflora have a positive effect on Vitellogenin (fat body) formation
(The health of honey bee colony is dependent upon
vitellogenin reserves of the nurse bees)
✔ Yeasts help synthesize B-vitamins needed for bee health
✔ Quick and easy to use
✔ Sold in heat sealed and moisture proof pack

Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB)
LAB’s ferment sugars to lactic acid, aid in honey production, fight pathogens by
lactic acid production, restore necessary microflora after antibiotic treatment
and maintain healthy immunity; aid in vitellogenin formation

Enzymes
Amylase breaks down starches to glucose; Protease breaks down protein peptide bonds to
free up amino acids; Beta glucanase breaks down glucans (parts of cell wall) to usable sugars; Cellulase breaks down cellulose to usable sugars

Yeast culture
Increase fiber digestion, reduce oxygen and provide necessary growth factors to
LAB’s; synthesize B-vitamins to aid bees health; mannan oligosaccharide prevents
pathogen adhesion to intestinal wall

Spore Forming Bacilli
Consume oxygen and create a positive environment for LAB’s, fight pathogenic
yeasts and molds, and reduce effects of stress caused by heat or cold"

[Allen Dick]

It actually be more than snake oil, which was my knee-jerk reaction.

I think there is a word missing in that line, unless that is an archaic use of the word, "be".

If you read the description critically, it is obvious BS (Bee Science? ) and that there could not possibly be any possible benefit. They cite known facts, but do not demonstrate how the product in any way supplies anything the bees do not gather or produce themselves.

It is amazing how mentioning a few key words and concepts somehow convinces people that something has been proven.

I think I can say without any equivocation or further research that the product is at best useless, and at worst harmful since it will convince some people that they have done something to benefit their bees, that they have done their part, and relax instead of taking Karen's microscopy course and learning something useful about bees and diseases so that they can do something that actually works (and probably costs nothing).

(Interesting side-note that always makes me wonder: Did you know that research has shown repeatedly that people who take supplemental vitamins do not live as long as people who do not? There could be a number of reasons, including the obvious possibility that people who take vitamins might do so because they feel unwell, but who knows.)

[Countryboy]

I have a couple dumb questions.

Do hives of normal health receive any benefit from this? (Assuming it works.) Or is the biggest benefit noticeable in the weaker straggler and dink hives?

Can't the alleged benefits also be gained by giving weaker hives a frame of pollen and bee bread and nurse bees from a healthy, vigorous hive?

(Interesting side-note that always makes me wonder: Did you know that research has shown repeatedly that people who take supplemental vitamins do not live as long as people who do not? There could be a number of reasons, including the obvious possibility that people who take vitamins might do so because they feel unwell, but who knows.)

Men on my dad's side of the family take vitamins and normally live into their 90's.
Men on my mom's side of the family are not known for taking vitamins, and live into their 80's.

I take supplemental vitamins. I'm a bachelor who hates to cook, and who eats a lot less healthy than I should. I'm hoping the vitamins will help fill in nutritional gaps my diet leaves behind. Perhaps the better question is not how much the vitamins will add to my life...rather, the question should be how much more my diet would shorten my life if I did not take the vitamins.

[Allen Dick]

Ooops. Sounds as if you bought some. Sorry.

(Assuming it works.)

Why would anyone assume it works? FDA approval? Controlled independent studies? The word of the seller?

Men on my dad's side of the family take vitamins and normally live into their 90's.
Men on my mom's side of the family are not known for taking vitamins, and live into their 80's.

How large are the samples? What is the standard deviation? Any exceptions?

Beekeepers love anecdotal "proof". Even well designed, controlled studies typically prove things to 95% certainty (assuming no mistakes were made) and that leaves a large hole to the real truth to drive through -- eventually.

[cam bishop]

Have to disagree somewhat... I think they actually may be on to something... a lot of research has been done in Sweden about Lactic acid bacteria {LAB} in the honeybee. With all the pathogens around now, the fungicides and the insecticides, not to mention the chemicals we put in the hive to fight nosema and the mites I wonder if that is weakening the bees so that the virus the mites vector become more deadly? I found these papers very interesting:

http://ijs.sgmjournals.org/content/64/P ... 9.full.pdf

http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apid ... 09040.html

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0033188

If they are correct wouldn't it make sense to enhance the availability of LAB in the honey bee? Might it also be helpful to the bees in fighting AFB, EFB and Chalkbrood? I notice that Mann Lake is now putting probiotics in their patties. Keith Jarret has been using a Micro Flora additive for quite a while in his product. Several beekeepers have been using enzymes in their patties for a while and report good results. The major problem is that it is very hard to quantify the results as good/bad, helpful/hurtful. I also wonder if something is inhibiting the bees ability to extract all the good stuff from pollen. Seems like it is getting harder to have "fat bees" going into the winter. Last winter was so bad for me that I'm looking into several areas to enhance winter survival. This is one of them.

[Allen Dick]

What makes anyone think that the bees are short of the correct bacteria? Or that this product provides these ingredients in a way bees can use?

I notice that Mann Lake is now putting probiotics in their patties. Keith Jarret has been using a Micro Flora additive for quite a while in his product. Several beekeepers have been using enzymes in their patties for a while and report good results

The manufacturers will put absolutely anything in the product that people currently believe in with no concern whatsoever as to efficacy.

These things really really work, though. There is absolutely no doubt about that. Putting the current fad item on the label and in advertising sells product, even no one has been able to prove it does anything at all for the bees.

People intuit (incorrectly) that because there is an association, that there is a benefit.

I found these papers very interesting:
http://ijs.sgmjournals.org/content/64/P ... 9.full.pdf
http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apid ... 09040.html
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0033188

So did I, and I actually read them critically enough to see clearly that they actually in no way (except by association) related to the question at hand which is: Does adding various substances that are found in beehives to beehives make any difference at all?

What did Barnum say?

Actually,there is no proof he ever said it, but everyone believes he did...

[Countryboy]

Ooops. Sounds as if you bought some. Sorry.

No fears, I didn't buy any.

Why would anyone assume it works? FDA approval? Controlled independent studies? The word of the seller?

You can't have a debate if you only look at one side of an argument. Like Rick Rule says - you can be a contrarian or a victim. And I prefer not to be roadkill. But sometimes it is helpful to play Devil's Advocate and question things from a different angle.

How large are the samples? What is the standard deviation? Any exceptions?

I had a great-grandfather on my dad's side who lost a tremendous amount of wealth by betting on wool futures right before the Crash of '29. He was also known for his incredible strength. (He once won a bet for carrying a side of beef up and down a flight of stairs without breaking a sweat or breathing hard.) After he lost the family wealth, he went crazy and died by bashing his head into the metal railing at an insane asylum because of the voices in his head.
I remember reading the news article from the 19-teens or early 20's about the daredevil who crashed his motorcycle flying down Main Street in Utica and hit his head on the curb. The newspaper said his head split open and his brains burst out. I think he was in his early 20's.
My dad had a cousin who hung himself when he was in his 60's after having a mild stroke a couple years before.
I do have an uncle in his 70's whom I doubt will hit 90. He owned a restaurant for years...had a heart attack in his 40's. He had a heart stent put in and also his wife died of cancer a couple years ago. It's taken a lot out of him. I doubt he will make it to his 90's, but he might surprise me.

On my mom's side, my grandpa was one of 8 brothers. The only one I know of who didn't live to his 80's was the one who got shot in Belgium in WWII.
My mom did have an uncle who was in his 70's when he died of cancer.

All of the other men from both sides lived to 80's or 90's that I know of. (But I honestly don't remember the guys who died young. It is the victor who writes history.)
Men from neither side of my family have weight issues. There are a few examples of women from both sides who are plump or carry a little weight. As long as I do not suffer an accidental death, I think I have the genetic potential to live into my 90's.

Oh wait...I am going to live forever...so far, so good.

Beekeepers love anecdotal "proof". Even well designed, controlled studies typically prove things to 95% certainty (assuming no mistakes were made) and that leaves a large hole to the real truth to drive through -- eventually.

When I was in school, they taught me that a 95% was an "A".
I consider any investment of 95% to be close enough to a "sure thing" that I will take a chance.
At 95%, I can afford to take a few chances. I doubt many folks would complain with 95% success in beekeeping.

Keith Jarret has been using a Micro Flora additive for quite a while in his product.

Keith Jarrett will also tell you that natural pollen is better than his product. But his product is better than bees being in a protein/pollen deficient region.

I also wonder if something is inhibiting the bees ability to extract all the good stuff from pollen.

Interesting that you mention that. Here's some anecdotal evidence for Allen to chew on.
A year ago, I went to Ukraine for 2.5 weeks for Apimondia. The black soils in Ukraine are the best soils in the world. The breads there are a coarser bread than what we are used to here. I saw very little processed food there. There were a lot of fresh fruits and vegetables, fresh seafood from the Black Sea, and foods seemed prepared from scratch.
I ate regular while I was there, (I often skip meals here.) and ate good healthy foods, and ate comparable portions to what I eat here. I have regular, daily bowel movements. When I was in Ukraine, I was pooping once or twice a week, and it was small quantities of poop. When I returned to the US and ate here, my poop volumes and daily regularity returned to normal. (I also lost 10 pounds while in Ukraine.)
I attribute the lower poop volumes to being that my body could digest more of what I ate, compared to the foods I eat here in the US. It has really made me wonder just how bad our foods really are. (Even in the 1930's there was Congressional testimony that our US soils were nutritionally depleted.) This is another reason I have started being more diligent in taking my vitamin supplements.

Yes, I am well aware of the life expectancy of Americans versus Ukrainians. That does not change my personal views of the health benefits of the food there.

And maybe my experiences were body reactions to visiting this place.

[Allen Dick]

When I was in school, they taught me that a 95% was an "A".

And anything that is 95% true is false.

I doubt many folks would complain with 95% success in beekeeping

No argument there.

Oh wait...I am going to live forever...so far, so good.

If you look at only your track record so far, it seems obvious that your current well-being should stretch out indefinitely into the future. No end in sight.

That is what we get when we apply good logic to bad (incomplete) data.

It's a missing 5% or unknowables that gets us every time.

[karen]

I used to have a bee yard across the street from a golf course. In general I have good results with my bees. The yard near the golf course failed to thrive. Every winter I lost well over half the hives. I kept bees in that location for three years and finally gave up. After I gave up I went to the town for a list of the chemicals used on the golf course, it is required to make it public knowledge. I thought maybe it affected my bees. Here is the list.
Dimension Ultra 40WP – Dithiopyr - Pesticide
DuPont Acelepryn - Insecticide
Chipco 26019 – Iprodione - Fungicide
Procon-Z - Propiconazole ­- fungicide and antimicrobial
Up-star SC – Bifenthrin - pyrethroid insecticide
Pegasus HPX – Chlorothalonil - fungicide
T-Methyl SPC 4.5f - Thiophanate-methyl - fungicide
Primo Maxx - trinexapac-ethyl - plant growth regulator
Cutless Mec - flurprimidol - Plant Growth Regulator
Disarm 480 SC - Fludxastrobin – fungicide
Ensign 720 – Chlorothalonil – fungicide
Interface - Iprodione / Trifloxystrobin – fungicide
Banol - propamocarb hydrochloride – fungicide
Spotrete F - Thiram [Tetramethylthiuram disulfide] – fungicide
Emerald - Boscald – fungicide
Inignia SC – pyraclostrobin - fungicide

Notice the amount of fungicide. A golf course is like a desert to bees but they will work the edges. Also this course has a few streams going through it out on to fields of nearby farms. When I saw all the was the fungicides I thought maybe it was effecting the beebread. I know if I tried to ferment yogurt or sourdough with fungicides in the mix that it would change the growth of the cultures. So my point is may be in some places bees do need beneficial bacteria added to their diet. We know in certain places the soil lacks things and we need to make up for it with supplements. When I raised sheep I had to inject pregnant ewes with selenium and add it to the diet of the whole herd. If not they were prone to white muscle disease which is a degenerative muscle disease found in large animals. Selenium (Se) deficiency is associated with selenium deficient soils and the inadequate uptake of selenium by forages grown on these soils. In New England the soils are deficient. So is it possible that in some areas we need to supplement bees? If so how do we know how much and what it should be?

Someone made the comment that if it was the golf course they would not be able to have any bees in Florida. My reply was bees in Florida to not have the confinement time mine do or the long break in brood rearing. Location is a consideration when adding supplements. I live in the north and take Vit D through the winter because I do not eat cod liver oil, my mother gave it to me as kid it is horrible. Is it possible that bees in one area need Lactic Acid Bacteria, enzymes and/or yeast while someplace else they do not? I think it is. But how do we know with out analysis of their diet. There are disadvantages too both little and too much.

[Allen Dick]

Is it possible that bees in one area need Lactic Acid Bacteria, enzymes and/or yeast while someplace else they do not? I think it is.

Absolutely, however just because something is possible, or that some people can imagine it vividly and convince others of its likelihood, that does not mean that it occurs with any probability, any certainty, or any frequency -- or even happens at all, anywhere or any time.

But how do we know with out analysis of their diet. There are disadvantages too both little and too much.

Aye, there is the rub. Proceeding out of good intent and ignorance is likely to have real effects, and they may not be what is intended.

In the case of the product cited here, though, I expect the product is merely a harmless placebo that will assuage the buyers feelings of guilt and helplessness and and enrich the seller.

That's a win/win.

Placebos and panaceas go back as far as human history and trading in useless cures has been a dominant feature in human culture. They do serve a purpose, but not the purpose they purport to serve.

[cam bishop]

I found this quite interesting. If nothing else considering this product has forced me to look at somethings I had never considered.

Display Settings:

Abstract

Send to:
Vet Microbiol. 2013 Dec 27;167(3-4):474-83. doi: 10.1016/j.vetmic.2013.07.030. Epub 2013 Aug 9.
Effects of the organic acids produced by a lactic acid bacterium in Apis mellifera colony development, Nosema ceranae control and fumagillin efficiency.
Maggi M1, Negri P, Plischuk S, Szawarski N, De Piano F, De Feudis L, Eguaras M, Audisio C.
Author information
Abstract

The European honey bee Apis mellifera is known to be affected by many parasites and pathogens that have great impact over the insect development. Among parasites affecting bee health, Nosema ceranae is one of the main biotic factors affecting colony populations. As honey bee populations decline, interest in pathogenic and mutualistic relationships between bees and microorganisms has increased. The main goal of the current study was to assess the effect of the oral administration of the metabolites produced by Lactobacillus johnsonii CRL1647 (mainly organic acids) supplemented in syrup, on: (I) N. ceranae sporulation dynamics before and after fumagillin application, and (II) performance of A. mellifera colonies. Different experiments were conducted to evaluate the effects of these bacterial metabolites on bees: in vitro administration revealed no toxic effects against bees. Colonies fed with the lactic acids incremented their beehive population and also the amount of fat bodies per bee. Finally, the organic acids reduced the intensity of the pathogen after the second application of treatment as well as enhanced the fumagillin efficiency. This study provides important information for the development of new control substances against nosemosis.

Copyright © 2013 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved.
KEYWORDS:

Apis mellifera; Bacterial metabolites; Fumagillin; Nosema ceranae control; Organic acids

[Allen Dick]

...oral administration of the metabolites produced by Lactobacillus johnsonii CRL1647 (mainly organic acids) supplemented in syrup

"Metabolites are the intermediates and products of metabolism. The term metabolite is usually restricted to small molecules. Metabolites have various functions, including fuel, structure, signaling, stimulatory and inhibitory effects on enzymes, catalytic activity of their own (usually as a cofactor to an enzyme), defense, and interactions with other organisms (e.g. pigments, odorants, and pheromones). A primary metabolite is directly involved in normal "growth", development, and reproduction. c2h4 is an example of a primary metabolite produced in large-scale by industrial microbiology. A secondary metabolite is not directly involved in those processes, but usually has an important ecological function. Examples include antibiotics and pigments such as resins and terpenes etc. Some antibiotics use primary metabolites as precursors, such as actinomycin which is created from the primary metabolite, tryptophan." (From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolite)

Is not fumagillin a metabolite produced by Aspergillus fumigatus? We should note that it is not permitted for use in Europe.

Goes to show that sometimes these microbial products actually work, although there are some questions about the efficacy and collateral effects of fumagillin.

These are not new ideas.

[Allen Dick]

When I saw all (the was) the fungicides I thought maybe it was effecting the beebread. I know if I tried to ferment yogurt or sourdough with fungicides in the mix that it would change the growth of the cultures. So my point is may be in some places bees do need beneficial bacteria added to their diet.

If the fungicides are present in sufficient quantities to inhibit or kill the microorganisms in the hive, why would we think they would not do the same to any amount of microorganisms we added to the hive?

This is the problem of abusing logic. Logic is a powerful, but very limited tool. It works well when used to process facts, but as soon as we add supposition into the 'facts' to which we apply logic, we often get invalid, unsupported and sometimes ridiculous answers, all justified by the use of 'logic' and 'reasoning'.

A textbook case is the Small Cell cult, founded on on a wishful and convenient misinterpretation of historical texts that allowed the originator to claim that her AHB were not AHB, but true European honeybees, retrogressed to a 'natural' size. When all the logic built on this false 'fact' is stripped away, the lie is quite obvious, but due to the convoluted logic applied to this information, many were fooled.

We also get the occasional 'true' answer when the underlying guess turns out to be valid, but generally speaking logic is a dangerous tool in the hands of the unskilled -- or the unprincipled -- because people are easily convinced by any semblance of logic, and it seldom matters whether it is valid logic or BS.

In the computer world,where people understand the limits of logic, we we say 'GIGO'. The result of applying logic to facts plus guesses is still guesses. It is like multiplying anything by zero. No matter how large the other number, when multiplied by zero, the product is still zero.

There was mention of adding metabolites, rather than the microorganisms themselves, but that amounts to adding a drug to the hive and brings up the question of chemical interactions, collateral effects, honey contamination, the FDA...

[karen]

guesses is still guesses

Yes and I was all guesses in that post. Solving problems starts with thinking about them. Guessing/thinking where or how to start and look for the solution.

[Allen Dick]

Agreed. There is nothing wrong with taking a trip through he possibilities in our minds. In fact, that is an essential process of discovery.

The problem comes if we get lost in there and start believing our imaginings and confuse 'possible' with 'probable' or as so often happens, convince others with flimsy proof (and I am not suggesting anyone here is doing that, BTW. Just giving a general alarm).

There is a world of difference between 'possible' and 'probable'

BTW, I have added to my previous posts on this thread to flesh out some thoughts.

I try not to change the meaning when I edit, but clarify sometimes or add more material.

Editing one's own posts is permitted on this board and all I ask is that people don't abuse the privilege.

[TWall]

That is the problem with trying to make complicated decisions without the knowledge and experience base to do it. I use to deal with it as a county extension agent with home gardeners and homeowners on a regular basis. It seems to be even worse with the influx of hobby beekeepers.

My own father use to drive me crazy. He would ask me a gardening question. I would not give him the answer he wanted. He would do it the way he wanted to, which was fine with me. But, when it didn't work out he complain about the failure.

Tom

[Allen Dick]

To add to this and clarify my concern, it is the same concern that keeps USDA scientists from hypothesizing publicly.

They do so in private and with people they trust to know the difference between brainstorming and telling known facts, but have too often found that when they hypothesize and speculate on unproven ideas in public, that some unsophisticated listeners assume those conclusions to have the same weight as carefully studied and proven results, then go around saying "So and so said this". That gets the trusting researcher into hot water and ensures that (s)he won't do it again.

This was the reason that USDA researchers were forbidden by higher-ups to continue posting on BEE-L and why I had an interview with a lab head for a Bee Culture article cancelled a decade ago. I am, and was, most discreet in such things, but one particular person misquoted USDA personnel at a sensitive time and the response was to cut off all contact with the press and bulletin boards at the time.

That said, you would be amazed at the highly speculative conversations I have had with some top researchers in private and the stories they tell.

I see this phenomenon all the time on discussion boards. That is one reason I quite them. People get to speculating and naive bystanders then assume that the wildest speculation is fact and go out and spread the word.

I don't want to see that happening here, so we must always add the disclaimer that we are just brainstorming and that our guesses are just that, and so far at least unproven.

[cam bishop]

An update from Beesource. Dean has just posted some information that the SuperDMF people have plagiarized from his web site without attribution. He is very upset. He also doesn't think their approach is good and thinks they really don't know what their doing. I got some free samples in the mail today from them. Don't know if I'll use them or not. I may put some on a couple of nucs in the spring and see if I see anything good/bad. I've sure learned a lot about microbes, enzymes and probiotics so it's not all bad. Gives me something to look at under the scope this spring and I know a lot more now, although I'm not sure how it will help me be a better beekeeper.

[Allen Dick]

I've sure learned a lot about microbes, enzymes and probiotics...

Can you summarize?

And, I have to wonder, Is any of it true, i.e. proven?

How much is speculation?

I went to Dianna's talk on the subject twice and both times she said, "could", "might", "maybe".

I feel ripped off every time the subject comes up -- the atmosphere is more like a revival meeting than science.

(Sorry, maybe it is just me?)

[cam bishop]

Well, I’ll supply some links to help me summarize… As a cancer survivor I rely on PubMed for a lot of my info. Everything there is at least peer reviewed and should have some credibility. I believe that bees may obtain some of their intestinal bacterial fauna from the flowers they visit. I extrapolate that one might culture these bacteria and add to pollen supplements to assist this growth… particularly in early spring when pollen is just starting and there are many days of no flying and brood is being raised. Seems like lactic acid bacteria is the most likely to add to the supplement. But how much? Strength? etc. I rely on scientists for this info and info is scarce. I know back in the '70's the idea of pollen supplements didn't enter the thought of the man I worked for. I wonder if the right mix might make the brood healthier. Might also make winter bees stronger, who knows. Doesn’t seem it will be detrimental. I thought that this company might be on to something until Dean posted the plagiarism. Now it seems they don’t know much more than I do about this stuff and like me, are guessing.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22340254

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21831787

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15279248

After thinking for a while I do think I'll try the stuff on a few nucs. Maybe they've stumbled on to something... all my reading seems to indicate it won't do much harm.