Updating Topics for Beekeeping Groups in 2014

General Discussion of Diary Posts and Questions on Beekeeping Matters
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TWall
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Updating Topics for Beekeeping Groups in 2014

Unread post by TWall »

Allen,

I could see it as part of beekeeping myths program. I'm not sure how many would be interested in that kind of detail. Beginners are certainly susceptible to things like small cell, treatment free, Russian bees, etc. Information is so abundant and it is easy for someone to come across as an expert when they aren't.

I am a hobby beekeeper who seeks out commercial beekeepers to learn from. The guys who make their living from bees tend not to waste to much time, money or energy in what they do.

Tips on how a commercial beekeeper does things that make beekeeping easier would be another good topic. Obviously, time spent in the hive is needed. However, we tend to make things more difficult than we need to. Let's come up with a rounder wheel!

Tom
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Updating Topics for Beekeeping Groups in 2014

Unread post by Allen Dick »

I could see it as part of beekeeping myths program
Interesting idea. How many can you list?

I do have a presentation "Thoughts for the Hobbyist" that has been very well received.

I think i gave it in new York a few years ago, so am looking for something fresh, but maybe it never grows old.

Marla gave the same talk last month that I am fairly sure I saw years ago.
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cam bishop
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Updating Topics for Beekeeping Groups in 2014

Unread post by cam bishop »

I often hear the same presentation at bee meetings that I heard a couple years previously. Not uncommon.

I tried small cell [Mann Lake plastic] and found no difference in mite counts than regular foundation. However, I did see some benefits, like more cells in the brood nest and bees seemed to be able to keep them warm with less difficulty in the spring. I still use lots of them and am not culling them. I also seem to see less nosema on plastic than foundation but it's such a small sample I'm not sure it's relevant. I no longer use wax foundation and have moved to all plastic.
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Colino
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Updating Topics for Beekeeping Groups in 2014

Unread post by Colino »

Allen Dick wrote:
I could see it as part of beekeeping myths program
Interesting idea. How many can you list?
Visit bee source for a week, I'm sure you could find lots.
Colino
Narcissism is easy because it's me or I, Empathy is hard because it's they or them.-Colino
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Unread post by Allen Dick »

I need a list, and no, I am not going to BeeSource. Barry has been a big part of the problem.
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Unread post by Allen Dick »

I tried small cell [Mann Lake plastic] and found no difference in mite counts than regular foundation. However, I did see some benefits, like more cells in the brood nest and bees seemed to be able to keep them warm with less difficulty in the spring. I still use lots of them and am not culling them.
Yes, I have some, too and they seem to work, but I like the Acorn and Pierco better. Same benefits, better plastic and molds and not quite as small cells.

We did a test at one time, but PF-100s were not on the market at the time. Someone should repeat this test.
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/arti ... sdrawn.htm
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Unread post by Colino »

Allen Dick wrote:I need a list, and no, I am not going to BeeSource. Barry has been a big part of the problem.
I was being facetious. :mrgreen:
Colino
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Unread post by Allen Dick »

I wasn't :) ...............
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karen
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Updating Topics for Beekeeping Groups in 2014

Unread post by karen »

Do you think that this would make a good presentation for a hobby/sideline crowd?

No, I agree with the others it would not be helpful.

I get the same questions all the time from people. They ask, how to requeen, how to find a queen, how to combine a hive, how to split a hive, when to feed a hive. The beekeepers today need basic information. I listened to a talk by Larry Connor the other day and he took a poll about what beekeepers want to hear about and the top answer was how to be sustainable. Hobbyists and sideliners want get away from depending on package bees or buying nucs. To do that the first thing would be get the bees to live through all four seasons. Then get them strong enough to split in July. Then they need to learn how to winter over a nuc. That is a toughest thing to teach. I am always trying different ways, I manage to always have enough to replace any winter kills. Also having nucs always gives you bees for a weak hive or a replacement queen when you need one. Granted, I sell packages, nucs and queens so we do not want these hobbyists to get to self-sufficient. But any of those topics or all of those most likely would be well received.

Someone told me yesterday they do not have to treat for mites because they have their bees on small cells. I had no reply. That is a safest way to go, keep my mouth shut.
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Unread post by karen »

To elaborate on people needing to learn the basics. This picture was sent to me by a bee club member. They thought their hive had AFB. They never saw a mite on a bee.
There are two bees on this frame one has a mite on it. Second year beekeeper...
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Unread post by cam bishop »

Then they need to learn how to winter over a nuc. That is a toughest thing to teach.
I agree, still experimenting myself. In this cold climate it's tough to get the right size cluster in a nuc for me. I don't want one that is so big that it eats up all the stores in short order but I also want one that has a large enough cluster to keep themselves warm. Kind of a balancing act. And some small clusters, that you think won't make it come through and are great hives the next year. I find that a 2 story, 5 frame nuc works best for me. But I have a few one story nucs survive last winter. Over that last few years I'm averaging 80% survival but last winter I had bad loses. Mite counts were low, nosema was non-existent in the dead outs, so I suspect some virus issues. I only taking about 20 nucs through the winter this year.
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Unread post by Allen Dick »

the first thing would be get the bees to live through all four seasons. Then get them strong enough to split in July. Then they need to learn how to winter over a nuc.
That's a tall order if 100% success 100% of the time is the inferred goal, and the hobby group are generally idealists, not realists, so that is what they expect and when they don't get it they dream up all sorts of hooey and then pass it around as truth.

The basics are dead simple. Keep strong healthy hives in good equipment in good locations and feed, wrap and treat as required. Fend of predators and pests.

The problem is this: you can overwinter all of the bees some of the time and some of the bees all of the time, but you can't overwinter all of the bees all of the time.

In beekeeping, 80% success is pretty good and the actual results oscillate around that number. In small samples (one or two hives) that means a total loss a significant portion of the time.

People tend to try to learn lessons where the only thing involved was luck, and confuse themselves when they do everything right and have a loss.

While the basics are easy to state, the devil is in the details. people do not understand words the same way, see things the same way.

Compounding the problem is the fact that all beekeeping is local and each beekeeper is dealing with different equipment, different location, different bees, different diseases, different micro-climate, and different history.

We can speak, we can illustrate, and we can demonstrate, but we cannot give understanding.
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Unread post by karen »

> We can speak, we can illustrate, and we can demonstrate, but we cannot give understanding.

Yes that is true.

Sustainable is vogue, you would draw a crowd. :wink:

I get 60 to 80% of my winter nucs to make it through the winter. It really depends on winter. I try different boxes and combinations of things. I have three different yards with nucs, not a great amount in either yard @ 6. Each yard has different equipment something may work this year that will not work next year. Just the way it goes. The best winter was the winter we had no winter in 2012.
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Unread post by Allen Dick »

Sustainable is vogue, you would draw a crowd.
If only someone could explain exactly what "sustainable" means...
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Unread post by cam bishop »

The best winter was the winter we had no winter in 2012.
Totally agree. I had 100% survival of my production hives and 95% survival of my nucs. Want another one of those winters. :!:
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TWall
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Updating Topics for Beekeeping Groups in 2014 - Myths

Unread post by TWall »

Allen,

Small cell foundation controls varroa.
Treatment free/natural beekeeping is best.
Powdered sugar shakes for varroa control.
Feeding sugar is bad.
I have Russian bees so I don't have to treat.
Treating for pests weakens bees.
My bees are gentle so I don't need to use a smoker, they will always be this gentle, right?
Crystalized honey is bad.
Only raw honey crystalizes.
I planted some nectar producing flowers in my garden so my bees won't bother my neighbors.
Non-interventional beekeeping is best for the bees.
My bees know me and won't sting me.
I have an internet mentor so I don't need a local mentor to work with.

These are just a few of the statements or thoughts I often here promoted by new beekeepers or those who are planning on getting bees. I'm not sure if a point-by-point
presentation would be the best way to deal with all topics. But, keeping this in mind would help when creating a presentation would help new beekeepers.

Tom
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Unread post by Allen Dick »

Thanks!

Keep 'em coming, folks!
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Updating Topics for Beekeeping Groups in 2014

Unread post by TWall »

Allen Dick wrote:
Sustainable is vogue, you would draw a crowd.
If only someone could explain exactly what "sustainable" means...
Allen,

One context that is often heard is the way Michael Palmer uses it. Not that I can fully describe his use but, to boil it down. The main idea is to keep a supply of nucs on hand to maintain a consistent number of production colonies. He uses nucs to not only replace production colonies but to produce brood, he calls them brood factories, for mating nucs and more nucs to overwinter.

Tom
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Unread post by Allen Dick »

Right. That is one use of that nebulous, undefined term, but some people I know seem to think it has more to do with not polluting the planet, using up resources...
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karen
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Unread post by karen »

When I hear people talking about sustainable beekeeping they are talking about having all their needs meet from their own bee yard. To them it is having brood when they need to boost a hive, having a queen when they need one, having bees to combine with a weak hive. If they kept a couple of nucs they could have all that. But honestly first they need to learn to keep their bees alive. So to these beekeepers (at least in Maine) sustainability is using the resources in your own yard to replace, boost, requeen your production hives. It could be called it renewable resource beekeeping.

These types of beekeepers think of bees as their pets. I have to do grief counseling when I sell a queen because they have to kill their failing queen. The weirdest thing is I hear all this talk about how they want sustainable bees and then they do not know what a failing hive looks like. Their hives will be queenless for half the summer because they didn't notice. When they do notice it is hopeless with laying workers, they lose hives to mites yet do not see a mite on a bee. They think any dead brood is EFB or AFB. Most of them have no clue how to inspect a hive.

I would expect your audience to be as 90% of the beekeepers in my club are. They are mostly nervous around their bees, they are idealistic about beekeeping. They need help getting both feet on the ground, to stop thinking their bees will live because they put powdered sugar on them, use screen bottom boards and small cell or natural comb.

I looked up renewable resource - A renewable resource is an organic natural resource that can replenish in due time compared to the usage, either through biological reproduction or other naturally recurring processes.

Then sustainability - Sustainability is based on a simple principle: Everything that we need for our survival and well-being depends, either directly or indirectly, on our natural environment. Sustainability creates and maintains the conditions under which humans and nature can exist in productive harmony, that permit fulfilling the social, economic and other requirements of present and future generations.

I like renewable resource better myself. It kind of has a ring to it. “Renewable Resource Beekeeping”
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