Acorn Frames

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cam bishop
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Acorn Frames

Unread post by cam bishop »

I'm going to town to pick up the Acorn frames.
I hope you'll give a good analysis of them. I'm interested but hesitant. Wrote to him and got no response.
Cam Bishop
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Allen Dick
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Re: Acorn Frames

Unread post by Allen Dick »

I just picked them up and had supper. Nick wrote a minute ago to make sure I got them.

My plan is to open the box, photograph them, then put some into hives tonight.
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Re: Acorn Frames

Unread post by Allen Dick »

I'm wondering how best to test them.

I;m thinking to shake a good hive down to one brood chamber and put a box of foundation on top. One half would be Pierco, the other half Acorn.

That should give me an answer within a week or two.
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Re: Acorn Frames

Unread post by Allen Dick »

Nick sent 20 black and 5 white brood/honey frames and one green drone frame. These are all standard depth frames.

As far as I can see there is almost no difference from Pierco, Both manufacturer's frames have slight warping on the foundation surface. I have a limited number of samples in front of me but have seen variation in the warping of Pierco and assume the same of Acorn.

The Acorn frames have a slightly heavier top bar, but one has to really look to notice it. The cell hexagonal bases have a thicker plastic sidewall stub than Pierco frames, so it will be something to watch to see if the bees care about that. In heavy wax foundation, thick base walls are made of wax and the bees use it to extend the walls on up, thinning the base of the walls as they use the material. In fact with some heavy wax brood foundation, they can draw the combs out 1/3 way without making any wax themselves. With plastic, they cannot so so. They can use the wax on the surface, but not use the plastic in the cell bases.

I'll just have to see what happens and if it matters.

These frames are well waxed as are the Piercos I have on hand.

Image
Pierco

Image
Acorn

Image
PF-100

I found a PF-100 kicking around, so shot it, too, Note the smaller image size for the same number of cells.

We are on the main flow now, so this test will only show what happens under optimal foundation drawing conditions. Another test may be required to determine what happens when conditions are more marginal.
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Vance G
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Re: Acorn Frames

Unread post by Vance G »

I am one of those who shave the PF's down to 1 1/4 to draw out 11 at a time. I put a vee in each frame toward the cut side with an appropriate color old queen marking pen. If I keep them all pointed the same way the warpages match mostly. Once the bees decide that a patch is bald, they seem to bypass it no matter what the spacing is. I will try painting wax on some if I get around to it. For the most part I end up with beautifully drawn combs.

Today I pulled three frames out of some medium supers as they were all started and by going to 8 frames they will all be wide of the frame for easy uncapping. I neglected to bring empty boxes but I was able to find homes for the partially drawn ones in colonies not as advanced and I guess I need to knock together some more mediums or shorten some deeps to put the extra medium frames in.

I had to throw quite a few gut busting full deeps today and I see all medium supers in my future! I just don't want to finish off a partially torn rotator cuff pulling that sixth deep anymore. To think I used to go 8 plus deeps high to impress the neighbors. Of course I worked them off a flatbed truck then too.
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Re: Acorn Frames

Unread post by Allen Dick »

Thanks for the info on warping. I suspected they all warp the same way and did an examination a number of years ago, but have forgotten the conclusion.

I f you are going to space them to eight, what is the point of spacing them at eleven? Does that guarantee a better start?
Allen Dick, RR#1 Swalwell, Alberta, Canada T0M 1Y0
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Re: Acorn Frames

Unread post by Vance G »

I read about drawing the PF's 11 to a box and tried it. It appears to me that the bees draw them with a lot less bridge comb if they are tightly spaced together. I am running a lot of the PF's and it also seems to help them draw that cell size more uniformly per the foundation. I am running 11 frames in my brood boxes and the theory is that the smaller cells means more brood in less area which can hopefully be covered by fewer bees and result in faster buildup. I am a warm hive fanatic and rewrap after inspections until nights are warm. My bees are at close to 5000 feet and I think that is important.

Now that the foundation is all drawn to spec halfway out, I pulled three off the outside and let the bees draw 8 as thick as they wish for my ease in extraction. I know you scoff loudly at small cell and I am not so sure about mite load benefits although that is why I initially got started with the PF frames. What amazes and amuses me is the sharpness of the attack against using small cell. Such hyperbole! As for me, the day I have quit running my experiment, they can just be mixed in with the thiry pounds of duragilt I have to put in wood frames. I bought most of those PF's much cheaper than I could have ever put together a wooden frames with any kind of foundation, I can get them drawn, and they are good enough for me.
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Re: Acorn Frames

Unread post by Allen Dick »

I know you scoff loudly at small cell
Actually, I don't have a problem for people using smaller cells if they work for them, and I have not told you that you are wrong. I don't think you are wrong if they work for you and I am always interested in hearing actual real-world stories.

Personally, I think a denser brood area is a good idea in our area, if the concept actually works. The standard brood box was designed to be all the brood chamber a good queen needs plus big enough for sufficient food for a while. At the time, foundation was 5.2 mm. Large cells and wider frame spacing require many northern beekeepers to go to double standards, which actually provide a bit more space than ideal.

I, myself, have a few hundred PF-100s and I managed to get most of them drawn reasonably well. PF-100s are intermixed with my other frames and i do not discriminate against them. I paid the same for them as I did for any other frame with foundation.

After using PF-100s in combination with other frames, I do, however,in my tests I conclude that the cells are a bit smaller than optimal, the edges are hard and sharp, and the frames themselves are brittle.

Would I buy them again? Probably not, but I would have to think hard if the only other choice was wood frames.

What people call small cells 4.9 and 5.0 have always been known to be in the range of cells EHB naturally build, but at the extreme low end of the range. Wise foundation designers came up with 5.2 and larger as good compromises. Some got carried away with the idea of bigger and went larger cells for easier extracting and found it did not seem to make any difference. I wonder if there is a difference in the north, though. We sure found the Pierco with slightly more cells per square inch and less wasted space due to wood did much better than any wood frame.

The real issue with small cell is the claims that Dee made for them, based on a (deliberate?) misinterpretation of history.
Allen Dick, RR#1 Swalwell, Alberta, Canada T0M 1Y0
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dtompsett
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Re: Acorn Frames

Unread post by dtompsett »

As far as the molding of frames is concerned, there isn't much to be done about the warping without some very expensive mold changes, or two-shot molding. Thick cools slower than thin, and long spans will shrink more resulting in stresses in certain parts.

People question the recesses in the frames, complaining of hiding spots for small hive beetles. Unfortunately, injection molding a frame with solid bars would use more material, potentially have voids in those bars,snd cooling of the thick sections would warp the frame even more.

I used to work in the molding industry... I've been part of the team involved in troubleshooting a mold for a complex part that would warp slightly differently every time it was 'shot'. Unfortunately, this part needed to be "perfect"... it's complex shape needed to fit exactly to the backside of a dashboard, to allow it to be laser welded in place. Not much variation before the plastics wouldn't fuse together. Backside of dash was scored, plastic bracket welded in place, and the airbag was bolted to that. If the airbag goes off, those plastic welds needs to hold!
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Re: Acorn Frames

Unread post by Allen Dick »

Here is what Nick says:

The comments from your friend are true
The One piece plastic bee frame may look like a simple part but it is a tricky part to mold warp free
Our current QC maximum allowable bow is .080 using a pin gage and a straight edge ruler.
If a .080 diameter pin rolls under a ruler placed corner to corner across the surface of the cells, the part is deemed unacceptable
We initiated this tighter tolerance about 4 weeks ago. You may have received parts molded before this.
The other thing we are going to study is the effects of the hot wax sprayed on the frame. Is this causing
warping once the product is in the box at a later date??
We plan to spend a lot of time in the off season Aug – Nov working on our molding processing and also looking
at the actual tool design itself to see what could be done it minimize warping . Our goal is to come out with
the flattest One- piece frame to ever hit the market- We already know the bees are accepting our cell foundation excellently
I know we can do this!!
Allen Dick, RR#1 Swalwell, Alberta, Canada T0M 1Y0
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Re: Acorn Frames

Unread post by Allen Dick »

Nick's work at quality control is much appreciated by all of us who are dealing with the warping problem, but I took a closer look and the 0.08" target is still more warp than we like to see.

1/16" is 0.0625" and the current warpage measures about 3/16" or 0.19" and 0.08 is a little less than half the current warping.

Of course, we must double those numbers to see how much the spacing is reduced where two adjacent frames warp in opposite directions.

If 0.08 is accepted, then the worst-case spacing variation would still be 0.16" from ideal or more than +/- 1/8" (0.125") variation where frames are not arranged all the same direction.

So, I conclude that 0.08 is much better than we see now, but that it is a maximum (barely) acceptable deviation, not a target, and 0.0 should be the ultimate goal.

Just sayin'.
Allen Dick, RR#1 Swalwell, Alberta, Canada T0M 1Y0
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TWall
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Re: Acorn Frames

Unread post by TWall »

Allen,

I realize you just got your frames back. But, I'm interested in hearing your report on the Acorn frames. I have only used wodden frames with mostly plastic foundation so far. I'm thinking of trying plastic frames for brood and supers next year.

Tom
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Re: Acorn Frames

Unread post by Allen Dick »

I much prefer the plastic one-piece frames. The extracted frames are still sitting on the truck since it is windy and cool outside and I am doing deskwork. I'll be sure to post photos, though, as soon as I have a chance.
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Re: Acorn Frames

Unread post by Allen Dick »

Just for the record, I am not seeing any warping in Acorn frames, but plenty of bowed Pierco.

Funny that for all the years he ran Pierco, Nick could not eliminate the warping, but as soon as he started his own outfit, the foundation appears to be flat. I'll keep observing, though.

Has anyone taken a close look at piercos lately? All mine are a year or two old or more.

What about Mann Lake's one-piece? How flat are they?
Allen Dick, RR#1 Swalwell, Alberta, Canada T0M 1Y0
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Vance G
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Re: Acorn Frames

Unread post by Vance G »

I have a lot of Mann Lake one piece in my brood chambers. They are bowed and I take care to index them so the bow is all in the same direction. How are you getting supplied with the Acorn frames so freight is not a killer?
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Re: Acorn Frames

Unread post by Allen Dick »

My friends buy by the truckload.
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